How your personality type affects how you handle money and ways to manage it so you can still handle your money well, no matter your personality type. Plus how your personality type effects your relationship with money and your significant other.
Catherine is a personal finance blogger specializing in debt payoff and money mindset, and self awareness via personality types.
[Money Psychology Approach](www.catherinetreme.com/shop) ebook by Catherine Treme
Welcome to the money mindset podcast and where you will find the inspiration and motivation you need to manage your money better so you can stress less, live the life you want. This is Ashley Patrick with the money mindset podcast and budgets made easy. And today we're talking to Catherine all about how your personality type affects how you handle money. But before we dive in, I do want you to go grab your hope money roadmap. Your quick start guide at budget's made easy.com/hope this is where you will start working on your money mindset, creating your financial for class and your financial blueprint so that you can create your safety net, knock out your debt, and start living the life that you want. Today we are talking to Katherine Treme, who is a personal finance blogger specializing in debt, payoff and money mindset and self-awareness via personality types. I'm so happy you are here. We've been talking before this podcast and laughing and I was so ready to get started talking about our money mindset and our personality types. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
So, um, yeah, just like, as you said, I am a personal finance blogger specializing and, um, personality types, um, um, as it relates to your money. Um, as we all know, money is like literally the thing that makes the world go round. Right. You know how you, right. You know how much money someone makes, you know, how you spend it, how people react to it. It just matters so much. And I think it's just a crying shame that we don't talk about it more.
I know. Oh my gosh. So you had me take this personality test, which we're gonna talk about here in a minute, and I love personality tests. Like I have a bachelor's degree in psychology, so I've always been intrigued about why people do what they do. And a lot of it, you know, can be segmented into personality types and there's all kinds of different personality tests, but I'm just always amazed at like, how accurate is, I'm like reading it. I'm like, Oh yeah, that is, I told them that that is me. That is, it's like
they're just accurate. They always say to like, I don't know, I do that. Right, right. And it's so funny that you said accurate because, okay, so you are an IST J and that is one of the things that I S T J's like values most is atrophy. And we were laughing about this before. Listen a podcast listeners, we were like literally dying a few minutes before this podcast started about like her personality type and cause she kept on state accuracy. I was like well that's obvious based over the code functions. Like ICJs would honestly appreciate that the most. Right. You know, random side note. I just thought that was absolutely hilarious
cause I had to add a word into my little introduction and you were like, yeah that is so something you would do based on your verse.
Yup. We have it. We, we haven't known each other but I'm just like, you know, Oh she's nice TJ. Of course.
So there may be some people out there wondering what the heck are they talking about? Personality types saying. So let's just jump right in. Since we already started talking about it, kind of what are some ways that our personality types kind of affect how we handle money or think about money or even, you know, we can jump into it later, but we were talking about how your personality types it with ah, spouses and couples and how that affects your relationship and money and everything. Like that version of kind of how our personality fits into how we handle money on an individual basis. And then we'll jump into couples,
right? Sure, sure. So first of all, let me clarify, um, what we're, what we're talking about is the Myers Briggs personality type. Um, and it's basically goes into the diff, uh, the four four acronyms like extrovert versus introvert sensing versus intuitive thinking versus feeling. And then the last one is perceiving versus judging, right? So, um, and there is, uh, what's called, uh, within the theory, it's called the cognitive function stack. And it literally, uh, if you look at it on, you know, what textbook or something along those lines, it is literally a stack. Like, if you just imagine four blocks, um, and it goes from the top to bottom, your level of consciousness, cause you didn't have some things you could do just so I'm like, okay. [inaudible] how do I, how do I say this? So like your reason level of consciousness, it's um, [inaudible]
so like the hacks for each one, for each different category is how like conscious you are of that block.
That's correct. And how, how, how good you are at it.
Actual, okay, I see.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, I am in the NFP, um, just imagine basically like your zany counselor type that pretty much, which is crazy, right? Or like, okay, that's kind of, you know exactly what I do, like counseling with [inaudible] in relation to money, money, behavior. So I mean, wow. It's kinda crazy how I Helen to that. So, um, I have my primary cognitive function is what's called a extroverted intuition, which is basically like thinking and relating different ideas and patterns. Right. That is like my natural, that's what some, some people called their flow state. Right. Um, and for you it would be introverted sensing, right? You're an IST J so you, you very easily recall, um, specific scenarios, facts. Ah, it just blows my mind how you guys can do that because that's our cognitive function stack is actually flipped. So that's my least favorite and least least developed, I guess you could say would be introverted, introverted sensing. So remembering bill due dates, you know, Oh, things. So since we're relating it to that, right, so bill due dates, things of that nature. Um, that is what I, I fault her at the most, right? Like, Oh yes. If I don't have my budget, Excel spreadsheet, um, plastered, like literally everywhere I have it on my phone, I have it like literally everywhere. So I don't forget what specific bill due days are.
No. Like I just have like the same bills are due and I know like when they're due like every month. But for your personality type, you have to have reminders everywhere for you.
Oh, yes. Oh, 100%. And because I'm in my, I'm in my thirties now and I still like, what am I? Bills haven't changed. You know, like your cell phone bill, that doesn't change. Right. But I'm still on that or is, I can't remember. You know, funny cause some of my, some of my other, I have some like local friends who they're like Catherine, like why can't you just get it together? Like how'd you graduate from college? And I'm just like, well ever since I've learned about this theory, I'm like, well I have inferior introverted sensing and that's actually pretty normal for Justin. So
no, for somebody listening, you know that may not be like me where you just, I'm like, well just write it down and paid the same time every month. They may be like you were, they have to have constant reminders like so for, for somebody that is your personality type, what are some tips to kind of help keep track of their money and their due dates and like that? Because
for me, I'm just like, well just write it down and follow it. But for somebody with your personality type, that's not as easy to do as somebody with my personality type do exactly what I did. Just like literally poster it like everywhere. And try and think of like the implications of what it could mean for your relationships. Cause that's what w um, NFPS are typically driven off of. Cause you know, the main reason why people have divorces, right? Or like issues and stuff like that is because of money issues. And so if you think about it from that perspective, that's a driving force for a lot of people. With our personality, with my personality types, we are very much so driven by um, relationships and um, thinking about, um, connecting the dots between actions and you know, what it could imply in the feature. And that's very well what you know, can and will imply in the future.
Like if you don't get ahold of that, that's what's going to happen in the future. You know what I mean? [inaudible] yeah, that's good because I don't think plus I'm just sitting here thing and how that side of my brain works. So that's really good. That's really good advice, you know, to kind of have that other perspective for somebody that is, you know, maybe a little bit more on the emotional side of things. Cause I'm just like, well just pay it, just pay it. Like what's the problem? Yeah, yeah. Like why are we, but you know, it's actually really funny. So going a little digging a little bit deeper. Um, so the cognitive function SAC actually can change based off of the different levels of stress. Right? So a couple of years ago I was actually in some pretty severe like chronic stress levels, um, with, you know, cause I actually went through a divorce myself.
Oh. And my job was a little, you know, unstable. And as we all know, work environments can very well shake your emotional stability, you know, so, so I actually, my cognitive function sex actually changed. Oh wow. I didn't realize that it could really shift like that. It can, it can. And cause you know, people like let's say you're in, think about a time that you had in your life where you were like severely, I'm talking like your whole world was shaken up. So we was funny because I actually turned, um, basically in two an IST J you know, everything had to be meticulously, um, planned out. And I'm just like, I am not being myself. Why, why am I like this? Like my cognitive function, sex actually changed all this kind of stuff and digging deeper. Like that's actually another factor that you can take it into consideration, which is, um, a lot of what I talk about in my ebook that I created the money psychology approach.
So if you listeners out there ever interested in that, it's, it's a very interesting read and you could apply it so much in your life. It's unreal. We will link to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, please just go ahead and take a look at it. Google it. It'll be there in my shop. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's, it's so [inaudible] and it's literally life changing how you can, um, if you take this in consideration, um, and apply it to your life and not only that, your, your relationships, think about the other person's personality type. Like if we want to, if you want to kind of ease on into the relationship aspect of it. Like, you know, you and I actually were talking earlier about how like your partner could do something crazy, something crazy that seems to you, right? Like, let's say, let's say your husband was an NFP, right?
And it's just like, why can't, if you miss the bill and now we have a $35 late fee, are you kidding me? Like, wow, how did you, this is your responsibility, you know? But, um, if you take in consideration, like that's their natural weaknesses, maybe you guys can adjust, you know, like, okay, well maybe I do this, I handle the bills. Um, I handle like the bill due dates, you know, I say, don't go against your personality, you know, go for it. Let's, what does everybody's natural strengths, let them thrive in that area. Right. So let's say for a, yeah, let's say your, for instance, your husband, isn't he NFP, right? So your husband would EMFP [inaudible] NFPS we're really good at coming up with creative solutions to problems, whether it be through like a new business idea or, um, creative side hustles that you can come up with.
Like let's say you're coming up with a bill coming up with unexpected expenses and you don't have something in the budget and you don't have an emergency fund. NFPS are, it's, it's uncanny like how much we can [inaudible] um, um, things like honor to make some extra money like, and quick, you know, and yeah, they can actually be like pretty good side hustles too. Like I actually had, um, I went through, I was at a startup and, um, you know, my boss flew in from California to come lay me off, you know, and it was funny that followed. Sure. So it was like on a Friday that following Monday I was already working on my side hustle, like making money like that. Yeah. That that day I was like, Oh well obviously I gotta do something. I'm going to be a Lyft driver. You know, I'm an Austin so I'm going to be a Lyft driver.
And you know, I didn't have very much money at the time cause I had a lot of student loan debt. So I'm just like, Oh well, you know, we, we take, you know, again with the um, inferior introverted sensing, we, I guess that from that perspective it kind of worked for me cause I wasn't thinking too much unlike previous experiences, which for me it would be getting laid off. Like at that point that following Monday, it was a previous experience for me. I'm like, okay, well how do we fix this? Like immediately let's just think of new possible ways to fix this. And within a few weeks I was making like a thousand dollars a week. It's uncanny.
That's awesome. So really kind of worked out for ya. Yeah, it did. It did.
You know, so S so there's pros and cons, you know, to that. And if you're not an NFP or I S T J, you know, you know, again, going back to the ebook thing there, there are other ways, um, there are other natural strengths that you may have. Um, for any of you that may be listening and you're like, well, I'm not a nice TJ and I'm not Nina FPA. I don't know what I am, you know, so you could go to a 16 personalities.com and figure out what you are and just kind of go from there. Like don't, um, [inaudible]. Yeah. Just get to know your natural flow if you will, or your natural, um, state and you know, expand on your strengths and try and minimize your weaknesses as much as you can, you know?
Yeah. Or even just, you know, balance each other out. So if you know that your strength is the numbers and doing the budget, but your husband or significant other strengths or coming up with ideas to make more money, you know, just try and balance each other out. Like if you know that you can stay on top of the due dates, then that's your responsibility. And then if their strength is something else, then they can do that. Um, I do get a lot of questions about getting your spouse on board. And so I'll have people like in my group though, like, okay, I've tried to tell my husband, I've done the budget, like, don't spend any money on this. And yet they still go out and run their debit card. Like even though they have went over everything and they're just not on the same page. So do you have any tips for like, maybe trying to start with their personality types and running this personality test and just kind of see where each other is coming from? Just from their natural tendencies and personalities and then trying to kind of come together on the budget and their, you know, their big money goals or their money mindset, whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, um, again, it kind of goes back to what I was saying with the cognitive functions, um, and how it can change based off of like the different, uh, stress levels. Right? Right. So let's say, um, you know, your spouse had recently like lost a job or whatever and they normally are an I in TJ, right? So I, and TJ is just imagine like the mad scientist that always comes up with these elaborate plans, you know, that's seems to be like their, you know, they're very meticulous and maybe like creatively come up with these like elaborate plans, things of that nature. Um, and they're normally very reserved and very controlled, right? So let's say they recently experienced a job loss, they come up with, um, they start randomly start spending like all this money, right? So the actually their cognitive function stack, which is again how you process information and make decisions can turn into what, um, that have an ESF P yes.
FPS are extroverted sensing, feeling perceiving. So just imagine like they're performer or, or like an actress that maybe you really good at making money but just like blow it all cause they are in the moment and things of that nature, they can actually turn into that. Right? So if you, if you want to, yeah, they can actually turn into that. And you know, from a spouse perspective and be like, Oh my God, this is not who I married. You know, I'm here and here. It's very different. Yeah. Yeah. That is very different and it can change very quickly. So, ah, taking that into consideration and be like, okay, they are in chronic stress levels. Function sec may have changed. I mean, you don't have to say it to think about it in like clinical terms. They're like, okay, they're changing, right? They're going through different, um, they're going through a stressful time and so they're thinking about things changed very quickly. You know, I'm maybe drinking too much functions that they, I N T days may not normally be into. It can manifest in that way and very quickly. It's absolutely, it's absolutely crazy. Like how that changes
that is, yeah. I didn't even realize that that could change so that I'm just like sitting here trying to process that it can change because you think like, okay, well this is just how you are. But you know, but you're right. Whenever somebody is under a lot of stress, you know, their personality does tend to change. I mean their, their habits may change. They start not acting like themselves. I mean, Oh my gosh, should we, especially with when it comes to money, when you are under like so much stress, I find that people don't think through and process what they're doing with their money, whether it's spending or you know, transferring it to
another counter. You know, what make a big purchase out of nowhere, you know, things like that. So that actually makes a lot of sense to me that, you know, when they're under a lot of stress that you just, you can kinda change your personality and do things that you wouldn't normally do. Yeah. Or for me it was the exact opposite. I was very meticulous about the, the bill due dates and like, Oh it's just like, Oh my God. Like I have an Excel spreadsheet of all my debts and I [inaudible] categorized it based off of the interest level. Like it, cause I'm not Norway like that kind of a person. I normally have not. But like at that time I'll, I was like, everything was organized. Everything had to have like a specific reason for being in, in my Excel spreadsheet. Like it was just, it was just so crazy, like how, how that changed, you know? And I actually, that's what actually made me, I guess survive, you know what I mean? When it was, how you coped with it. [inaudible]
it was good with it. Now for it, let's back up a minute because I don't think that we really like went into each personality types. Um, so let's talk about that real quick. So my understanding is there's four like main kind of groups, but each, each personality type, like, like I'm a I S T J and so each, the I stands for something. The S the T the J, they all stand for something, but there's four like main groups and kind of how, just real quick, like kind of what is each category and kind of like characteristics of each first a acronym, group level. It's extroverted versus introverted, right? So the extroverts tend to have more, um, uh, I guess lively, like facials, full expressions. Whereas introverts, they tend to, you know, have more conservative facial expressions or be conservative with their facial expressions. Right? Um, yeah. You know, and then obviously extroverts tend to want to go out more and do more things and they get energy from being around other people. Whereas introverts, eh, they tend to, I've, I heard a couple of introverts say they suck the soul up my life.
I could see that. So they need to like stay at home for a couple of nights and just regroup and things of that nature. Right? And so, so the next group would be sensing vs intuitive. Syncers tend to be, um, more in the real like day today. Um, like interactions, right? Like, like, so for your, you, you're an ISDN TJ, right? You want to know the facts, you want to know how all of that plays out in day to day life. W whereas, uh, intuitive tends to be more like what is the potential implications ofX , Y, Z information, right? They want to know, like, more of like the abstract, um, abstract idea of like what's going on. And then you also random side note, you can tell an intuitive because they tend to talk more in um, euphemisms, right? They tint like what I just did, right?
They tend to talk more in theory and all that kind of stuff. Whereas sensors may not so much. They tend to talk more [inaudible] facts and specific details of like what happened in the past and things of that nature. And then there's thinking versus feeling. Um, feelers tend to, um, think, let's say, let's say you're a boss, right? Boss has an employee that doesn't, it's not performing level, but that that's not performing at optimal levels. I thinker would be more so inclined to be like, okay, well what's the effectiveness of this employee versus the, um, versus the feeler and be like, okay, well what's the specifics scenario? And like what's going on with this specifics person? And then the last category would be, um, perceiving versus judging. Perceivers tend to want to see how life just kind of plays out, right? Yeah. That's not, yup. They want to see like, okay, let's not get bogged down with all this checklists to do lists. Let's just see how things just kind of play out. Right? Versus judgers not necessarily saying they're judgemental people, but because that's what people tend to immediately think about. I'm not judgemental. Oh, you know, well this is not necessarily what that means, but judgers tend to want to kind of wrap things up, if you will. Yeah. You know, like what's the, what's the bottom line here? What's the exact, you know, that kind of thing. That's what those four like acronym stand for. And just like a general overview of like what that actually means.
Awesome. Thank you so much. I know this people are probably like, what the heck are they talking about? So I, and Oh my gosh, now I forgot what it's, I am N I S T J. So I'm an introvert. I'm very much an introvert. Like I have to force myself to be kind of an extrovert. Like with my previous job, I was a detective and so like I had to talk to just random people. It has very, very outside of my comfort zone. So I've learned how to like kinda cope with it, but I definitely need my alone time, like [inaudible].
But I'd imagine you'd be very good at that job because they have a lot of details that they have to take in consideration and remember, you know, so I imagine that would be a very good career path for I an IST J
and it's a lot of facts. Like I can only deal with the facts, like I can't deal with how you feel, like I have to deal with facts and what I can prove in court. So yes, I definitely can see that being a strength. Um, so I could see like an extroverted, um, now I forgot what they all stand for. But at E S T J I guess is what you would probably do really well too. Like being able to just talk to people and things like that, but then also deal with the facts and the numbers and you know, that kind of stuff as well.
Yes. Yes. And they, um, tend to make for excellent military leaders as well because you have two people in the military and you could tell the EST JS because they can take their primary cognitive function is to um, is extroverted thinking, which is organizing your environment. So E and TJ is an S T J's a, they lead with that cognitive function. Um, so if you think of like the Donald Trump's of the world, um, if you don't like Donald Trump, I'm sorry, but that's like the first, um, yeah personally. But he does lead with extroverted thinking like he is immediately just like how do I take control of the situation? Yeah. Right. Like that is, that is what, you know, he does and a lot of Ian and ESG Jays tend to do that, which, you know, it has its pros and weaknesses, right? Like, you know,
it's really, especially when it comes to money, like it sounds like there are strengths and weaknesses with each personality type. And I think that, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it kinda like your focus is figuring out your personality types, your strengths and weaknesses around money. And maybe kind of, um, using your strengths and your weaknesses to manage your money better. Is that kinda like what you help people with?
Yes. Yes. Um, and then how to not only that, but just how to, um, relate that two, a person's a spouse or significant other, like if they're thinking about getting married but they're kind of hesitant because they're like, Oh, this person does this crazy things with money. Um, yeah, I would definitely be the person. They'd be like, Hey, you know what? Let's think, let's talk about that.
Yeah. Especially like before you get married, if you were to do one of these personality tests and really get ahead of the game, like know what each other's strengths and weaknesses are, especially when it comes to money, because that's a huge factor in divorce. And if you're already like, I mean that could really set you up for a life of success for finances and your marriage, you know, like that could [inaudible]
Oh really? Yes. Yeah. I wish I would have known about this cause I think it could have saved me not only from a money perspective, from my career perspective and just it just this one little test can affect your life in so many different ways. And now not just taking the test but actually applying it in your life.
It's about this test. The 16 personalities.com is where I took it and we can, we'll link to it in the show notes, but it like gives you a summary. Like it says strengths and weaknesses, romantic relationships, friendships, Parenthood, career paths, workplace habits. So it gives you a little summary of like your strengths and weaknesses. And really, I mean I was reading some of these, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that is me. Like it just, it's like how does it know that I do that
very well-developed theory. Oh, that can just change your life. And it sounds so crazy to say just from like a couple of little letters. It's so amazing. I really hope like for anyone that's listening right now, like please just take the time to, um, take it just 20 minutes out of your day and just really research about yourself, um, because, because it could be a major game changer for you and your family or a future family or you know, whatever's going on with you at the, um, at that particular time. Um, it did wonders for my life and a little scary because of, you know, like Ashley said it a little cause it's so accurate.
Give me just a couple last words of wisdom. Uh, any like quick, when's quick tips that somebody can do that they're wanting to change their mindset? Um, you know, just be more aware of their PR, you know, their personality and how they handle money. Any last
words of wisdom take into consideration you or your spouses? Cognitive function stack. Um, you know, we did talk about that. Um, because it's a huge factor in how you process information and make decisions. Um, so just recognizing the different levels of consciousness that a person has can be a huge factor in how you need to proceed with your life. So whether it be from like who manages the bills, who's coming up with the creative solutions for things of that nature. So yes. Awesome.
Now I always like to ask people about their favorite non fiction books. So you know, we're all about improving our mindset and our lifestyle and everything here. So I like to read a lot of nonfiction books. Do you have a favorite or maybe more than one?
Uh, yes, 100% it is do it scared by Ruth Sukup. I am a major fan fan girl. We'll have different podcasts and made you read her
book on a hoopla and I try cause it's free through my library and I tried to read that book like three times. It would never load, so I guess I'm going to have to just go buy it because apparently I can't read it for free. The audio book might've been on there the last time I checked in night, I think I forgot. I hadn't actually listened to the audio book. But yes, I love Ruth. So tell me, so what about this book? Cause I know that there's like a personality types. This book is about personality types. So tell us really quickly about this book. Yeah. So I am the, I am a procrastinator like 100% I'm a rule follower. I know. I just [inaudible] know what we were at a soccer game this morning, my kids' first soccer game and somebody, somebody brought a dog and there's signs everywhere. The email said no dogs and there's a dog. And I'm like, they're not supposed to have a dog here. And my husband just let it go. And I'm like, but the sign says there's no dog. It's like, why didn't they have a dog? Why don't people think they could just do whatever they want?
I would've never even, I never would even realized it. I'd be like, Oh, that's a cute dog. And I'm sure they probably never even noticed the signs. They may not have got the email, but I'm like, the rules are the rules. They are not supposed to have a jockey. Oh, that's so funny. Another example of how accurate this stuff. Another example. I know, it's so funny and I'm like, you're right, I don't know why I care. Just let it go. And then I did. I was over. Well, I mean, but there's, there's, there's pros to that, you know, cause if there were no rules in society, we'd all live in chaos. You know what I mean? That is true.
Yes. The book, it breaks it down into wet four. Is it 4%? Cause like I said, I haven't actually read it, but I've listened to her podcast and stuff, so I kind of have like a general idea about it. But yes. So she does, it's not, um, it's not in relation to Myers-Briggs. I'm not, I can't remember how she, again, with introverted sensing in fear and sensing all the, I know there's one that was a rule follower. There's a procrastinator. There was like perfectionist, so and whatnot. But I remember how accurate it was for me, like how I kind of put things off because I don't want things to be messed up because I'm like, Oh well I don't want to like screw this up. So yeah, it was, it was crazy to me like why I did what I, Oh, why I've procrastinated the way that I've procrastinated do it scared and move forward, you know? Yeah. So I, I love that about her. She, um, I could just imagined, I've never met the woman a day in my life that I could just her and be like, okay,
so why didn't you finish that blog?
Let's do this. Yeah. Cause I think she's talked about she is a rebel. That's what it was. She's a rebel. So the rules don't apply to them and rules of her soccer's for soccer. So that's where she is. So that's right. That was the other one last thing. Where can people find you too, Katherine? dream.com
and then you could go to my shop and then I'll look for the money psychology approach.
Awesome. And do you have any good freebies that they can go and download?
My main, my main page and it's my, um, on my money vault, I guess you could say. So it's all my, um, best resources for, um, how to save and make money, you know, whether it be yes. Um, and obviously in a creative way, of course, whether it be through starting a blog or you know, getting a drought, driving side hustle on or something along those lines that you can make money and make money fairly quickly.
Oh, awesome. I'll have to do another episode on that because you know, we can talk all day. So we'll have to schedule, we'll have another episode and talk about all about side hustles. That sounds [inaudible]
awesome. Oh yes. I am like the queen of side hustles. I sometimes I've made up to like $3,000 a month with my side hustle. It's crazy.
That is crazy. That is crazy. Yes. We need to talk about that soon. Okay. So where, where can they find you on social media? What's your favorite?
Oh, yes. Um, my favorite is Instagram. I'm always, again, being an NFP, I am all for, um, coming up with creative solutions and Instagram seems to have like all these awesome things to say so that you could just kind of get your day jump-started. Um, I'm really big into like Instagram stories, so yeah, follow me there and
yeah, we'll go from there. Awesome. Yes, I've just started like in the last maybe month, like really tried to focus on Instagram. I'm really liking it. Like I never even used it for personal use. Like I just always used Facebook, but now that I'm getting added, love the stories, just like you said, like I get a D, just do quick little videos and things like that. So yes. Come follow Katherine on, um, Instagram and I'm sure you have Facebook and everything. Also a, is it all the same? It's all the same at Catholic. Yes. And then my website is Katherine treme.com. Yeah. And I'll link to everything in the show notes. Of course. Be sure to go check out Katherine on social media and her website. And then don't forget to go grab your hope money roadmap of budget's made easy.com/hope so you can get started on paying off debt, saving money, and living the life that you really want. I will see you in the next episode.